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Let me end this Pikemen discussion.


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Antaleon #1 Posted 11 February 2018 - 12:56 PM

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Pikemen are so good there is no reason to play any other infantry then Pikemen, that is why its broken. I've fully surrounded pike men and they just walk backwards and still do insane damage while retreating.

 

Sure they have counters like dogs and range, but point here is if they are so good, the other infantry will lose its place in the game and thats not healthy for the game as  a whole.


Edited by Antaleon, 11 February 2018 - 12:56 PM.


ChaiDogsLiveLongNProsper #2 Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:44 PM

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in competitve play pikes are okay. in random pubs they are too punishing for noobs. period

 



Lee_Nox #3 Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:38 PM

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Yeah, let's end it shall we.

As the old song says "You got to know when to hold 'em,Know when to fold 'em,Know when to walk away,And know when to run"

Pikes require a good deal of micromanagement and when facing them, you need to exploit that to your advantage.

You don't have to engage Pikes, actually, you mustn't. Let your ranged units do the job. In a small space, back away, shift your unit elsewhere and do something useful don't stand there waiting for a miracle to happen, draw them to the open space and then surround them from every angle.

No, you can't? you have no option but to engage pikes? alright do it but do it the right way, sacrifice a unit to try and go around pikes with the other two, hold your line so your allies can have a chance to help you take'em down. And use your charge and morale debuffs wisely, engage pikes on their sides not in the middle, so that you have a chance at winning.


                                                                                                                                           

Spartan_93 #4 Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:55 PM

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In my opinion (based on a little expierence from KI-battles), pikemen get balanced by your own teammates. If they let you do yor thing (that means phalanx activ, enough room for pull back if pikeman are tired), they are really strong.

But if your teammate decide to "help" you and attack over the "phalanx-side" instead of flanking the enemy, pikemen are pure crap.

 

If you stay in phalanx you get a lot of teamdamage because your teammate kill his own soldiers and weaken his team.

If you deactivate phalanx, you lose the advantage and the phalanx-attack-bonus and your pikemens lose the fight against better sword infantery.

 

=> Lure enemie into the enemy-phalanx to kill them, if that not work, run away or go cap, phalanx is slow



SUNTZU_JoJo #5 Posted 11 February 2018 - 10:27 PM

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Had a game.

Where I was Miltiades and Tier X Spears.

Against Tier X Pikes.

I had my 3 Units of Spears attacking only 1 Unit of Pikes where:

1 was attacking front

1 was attacking side flank

1 was attacking rear flank

With 3 consecutive Fears (1 runs out, use another..and then another).

Yet they still didnt route.

All they had was a 2nd Pike Unit buffing their remaining side flank for morale.

That and Leonidas' Hold the Line.

 

 

I can understand that they are meant to be tough, but that seemed a little too much IMO.


...When ten to the enemy’s one, surround him;

...When five times his strength, attack him;

...If double his strength, divide him;
...If equally matched you may engage him;
...If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
...And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
...for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."

the Art of War, by Sun Tzu

Youtube Channel [ JoJo's GGs ] has gone live!


exbuzzz #6 Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:28 AM

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View PostLee_Nox, on 11 February 2018 - 02:38 PM, said:

Yeah, let's end it shall we.

As the old song says "You got to know when to hold 'em,Know when to fold 'em,Know when to walk away,And know when to run"

Pikes require a good deal of micromanagement and when facing them, you need to exploit that to your advantage.

You don't have to engage Pikes, actually, you mustn't. Let your ranged units do the job. In a small space, back away, shift your unit elsewhere and do something useful don't stand there waiting for a miracle to happen, draw them to the open space and then surround them from every angle.

No, you can't? you have no option but to engage pikes? alright do it but do it the right way, sacrifice a unit to try and go around pikes with the other two, hold your line so your allies can have a chance to help you take'em down. And use your charge and morale debuffs wisely, engage pikes on their sides not in the middle, so that you have a chance at winning.

 

So you say to kill 1 pike unit, you must use 3 units with one sacrificed. Do you call that balanced? What if the pike commander has a brain and has seen people try to do this countless times, i'm sure he won't fall for it.

 

After all that, you still have 2 more of his pike units to deal with lol.

 

People here seem to think pike commanders are inept and can only control 1 pike unit at a time, allowing you to easily flank it and kill it.


Edited by exbuzzz, 12 February 2018 - 01:29 AM.


macpla_EU #7 Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:40 AM

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I don't think that this conversation should go to how many units you have to sacrifice to kill/route Pike units. I think that it's OK if you even lose 10 units to 1 Pike when you simply play dumb. 

 

The real issue here is HOW fast Pikes MOW your units. Folks still exploit Cynane Pikes with rapid advance while in phalanx for instance. The DPS is an issue here. Even if you outplay Pikes on flanks and rear but your units will not counter Pikes simultaneously, in matter of second or two pikes will annihilate their frontal engagement, then rotate and repeat (they don't have fatigue, and even 1 rank of Pikes is a death making masterpiece with extreme wide front). I think that Pikes have higher DPS on any unit(shielded or not) than good charge of heavy cavalry makes on archers.

 

In fact pikes are not defensive unit at all, this role is represented by spear unit which I think are mostly well balanced and can't be too aggressive thanks for fatigue. Also I like the latest change how "thrust" is counter by "formed combat" making almost zero dmg. 

 

I am OK with Pikes being so dreadful on battlefield that is better to run from them than engage. The only issue here is DPS what this unit produce even if it loses it cohesion. This unit should not be able to generate such output if its line is broken to great extent which happens a lot during "mower tactic". Also how we can stress that "pikes" are OK while they can create 'holes' in battleline way faster and better than any cavalry impact charge ?

This game greatly imitates pikes range advantage, just current implementation sucks on hit ratio making from a wooden sharp stick a lightsaber. 

 

A good example should be fight between Pike Phalanx and Spear Phalanx in head-on engagement. Pikes advance should proceed extremely slowly and generate mediocre kill ratio, where Spear advance should only increase fatalities on self. Currently this engagement will simply wipe spears unit in fraction of second. 

 

EDIT:

Hell I would even stress that pikes should produce little dmg to a shield unit, and had an extremely powerful thrust every few seconds which could ignore shield defence for such case. So pushing with pikes on shielded opponent would generate small dmg and then thrust would be dreadful. 


Edited by macpla_EU, 12 February 2018 - 03:52 AM.


ThatPikeGuy #8 Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:27 AM

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why end discussion :s

 

Too lazy to write a response but ya, if pike player avoids their weaknesses then it's gg


pls buff pike surfing

Antaleon #9 Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:40 AM

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Even if you avoid pikemen they always win positional wars if you dont have pike yourself , which makes more options for ranged behind pikemen armies. (Like holding watchtowers). 

 

The advantages of playing them can't be argued at this point. 

 

 

 



Lee_Nox #10 Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:14 PM

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"Not bravery, but brains", when i said sacrifice a unit, it's a last resort and it's a calculated sacrifice you lose a unit to kill a unit. i'll say it again you mustn't engage pikes in melee unless you have too.

From what I've seen so far, some of the pike players are really dumb they fight under the banner of "i'm pikes no one can stop me", others use their brains and know exactly when to engage and when not they know what are you trying to do and they shy from engaging your units brainlessly.

Things to consider when fighting pikes :

  1. They do ff to their allies (you can use this to your advantage)
  2. They are predictable 
  3. The terrain (woods, mud, river etc)
  4. What commander are the pikes on (personally i think Leonides is the hardest to beat)
  5. Are the pikes protecting a unit (playing passively) or are they been protected (playing aggressively)

And finally, i'm not preaching a recipe to successfully beat pikes, there's no such thing, they are a nuisance for some i can understand that, but with a sound engagement and a good amount of oxygen rushing through the brain there is a chance to get that sweet pike [edited] :p


                                                                                                                                           

PaiNzzz #11 Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:20 PM

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Let me end this Pokemon discussion. Pikachu is overrated and overhyped just because of the anime. In the games he kinda sucks.

 

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macpla_EU #12 Posted 13 February 2018 - 04:14 AM

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PaiNzzz send me your diler details on PM plz :) 

Antaleon #13 Posted 24 February 2018 - 03:10 AM

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So people still defending Pikemen? They released elephants, only reliable counter? oh you guessed it PIKEMEN!. 

 

So for infantry in current meta only play pikes or dogs , 0 arguments for playing sword or spear infantry. If you can give me 1 legit reason as 2 why you should play them please go ahead.

 


Edited by Antaleon, 24 February 2018 - 03:10 AM.


XIIl_DarkDusT #14 Posted 24 February 2018 - 04:32 AM

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View PostThatPikeGuy, on 12 February 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

why end discussion :s

 

Too lazy to write a response but ya, if pike player avoids their weaknesses then it's gg

 

View PostAntaleon, on 24 February 2018 - 04:10 AM, said:

So people still defending Pikemen? They released elephants, only reliable counter? oh you guessed it PIKEMEN!. 

 

So for infantry in current meta only play pikes or dogs , 0 arguments for playing sword or spear infantry. If you can give me 1 legit reason as 2 why you should play them please go ahead.

 

 

Sure, Ceasar - Germanicus - Sula -Cynane

And just laugh away at pike's elephant's and crybaby's. Nothing wrong with pike's other then to strong vs new players that go frontal with 3 unit's. This however dousnt give you the right to compain.

This game is about using the combination of generals to your advantage in battle. Pike's 1v1 vs swords might look like fun. It's gonna be rather different when you face a ceasar silence with a germanicus charging in.

Elephant's? Sula stake's, ceasar/sula javs and gogo kite. Won't take to long.

Not saying i agree with the 4.4(?) ms on t6 elephants, balance needs to be done.



ThatPikeGuy #15 Posted 24 February 2018 - 10:26 AM

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what the heck are you talking about, why did you quote me
pls buff pike surfing

Antaleon #16 Posted 24 February 2018 - 05:51 PM

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View PostSUNTZU_DarkDusT, on 24 February 2018 - 04:32 AM, said:

 

 

Sure, Ceasar - Germanicus - Sula -Cynane

And just laugh away at pike's elephant's and crybaby's. Nothing wrong with pike's other then to strong vs new players that go frontal with 3 unit's. This however dousnt give you the right to compain.

This game is about using the combination of generals to your advantage in battle. Pike's 1v1 vs swords might look like fun. It's gonna be rather different when you face a ceasar silence with a germanicus charging in.

Elephant's? Sula stake's, ceasar/sula javs and gogo kite. Won't take to long.

Not saying i agree with the 4.4(?) ms on t6 elephants, balance needs to be done.

 

Why do you and everyone else assume everyone who complains about Pikemen are people who just walk into thr phalanx? At current meta everytime i advance as spearmen I will in most cases have to turn around and run because

 

1. There is pikemen in chokes

2.There is elephants coming.

 

Best solution? play pikes yourself.

 

High percentages of games I play my spearmen , the logical conclusion is if I played pikes I woulda been able to do something here or stop their advance but since I don't I have 2 retreat and lose ground. 

 

And the commanders you mentioned that can't force Pike out of phalanx are useless against it.

 

Point here is you can do the same with pikes yourself and disable other pikes. Conclusion is always the same playing pikes will give you higher chance on avarage to advance forward. 

 

 



XIIl_DarkDusT #17 Posted 25 February 2018 - 01:10 AM

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I very much disagree with "if pike player avoids their weaknesses then it's gg"

In our friendly  tourney, it showt. Bringing pikes offers no value in a more competitive format. Just against new players.

 

And Ataleon, i would argue its Ceasar, not pikes that make you able to advance in any situation. But these things start with T7 generals.

 






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