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Jakerp #1 Posted 02 February 2018 - 06:04 PM

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What to do in games where 9 / 10 other team players play commanders or units that always wins what you are playing even with lower tier units like for example in this game:

Germanicus with vengeage always wins infantry Sulla, Pikes always wins infantry Sulla, Archers always wins infantry Sulla. Sulla cant even block them fully to delay missile annahilation as Sulla dont have testudo or shield raise. All of those units can also force sulla to flee or die and then greek arches can shoot infantry Sulla from behind and kill him even faster. That only players (barbarian cavalry) witch Sulla actually can win in melee Sulla is so fast that Sulla cant even catch only unit that he is able to win?

 

Lets not forget that in this games mechanics also heavy artillery and light artillery wins infantry Sulla and javelins also wins infantry Sulla. Developers of this game are also boosting falxmen to win infantry Sulla after all 100% of commanders that wins infantry Sulla is not yet reached.

 

I have played almoust 3000 battles and I have never seen ANY infantry Sulla player ever getting those same level TOP scores in aggression score what Mitiades, Greek archers, Germanicus or pikes generally get so am pretty sure that Statistics of this games support my claim that Sulla is one of weakeast infantry commander in this game. If you know any Sulla with infantry ever reaching 8000 aggression score in among thousands of battles played please let me know? (I can see somebody reaching 7000-8000 aggression score almoust every week with those strong commander but never anybody who is playing Sulla as infantry commander)

 

What is point of playing defensive and not so mobile commander if everything in this game just force you to flee or die? Pikes, javelins, arty, archers, falxmen, vercingetorix fire, Germanicus vengeage. Then game mechanic makes grinding other score types harder like CAP in capping points and sulla is not that great grinding defence score either as those classes with testodo or fight in the shade are better in that too and they are better grinding aggression score too.

 

I really think Sulla need  more things like ability tank pikes better now all pikes just mow trough Sulla like he is made of butter. Also Sulla should last longer against vengeage than 35s and then you are dead even at T10 that is too low time for tanking anything. Against pikes Sulla last like 5s-10s. I quite often play tank or support in MMO games and am quite saddened state of this. I am pretty sure that quite a many other who have grinded Sulla infantry up to T10 cant think it strong or if you think Sulla as infantry commanders I like to hear your arguments?


Edited by Jakerp, 02 February 2018 - 06:09 PM.


Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #2 Posted 02 February 2018 - 06:28 PM

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did you try to play sylla with 1 inf and 2 jav, scorpion, cav?

 

maybe i m wrong but for me sylla is a support commander and you cant do this job with 3 inf

 

proscrition is rly strong and with the mobility you can replace your jav, scorpion,cav without any problem and he is the only one roman who can do that

 

but as i said, maybe i m on the wrong way but for me it s like that and that s how i play him


Edited by Im_Melliana_I_burn_you, 02 February 2018 - 06:29 PM.

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Jakerp #3 Posted 02 February 2018 - 06:49 PM

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View PostIm_Melliana_I_burn_you, on 02 February 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

did you try to play sylla with 1 inf and 2 jav, scorpion, cav?

 

maybe i m wrong but for me sylla is a support commander and you cant do this job with 3 inf

 

proscrition is rly strong and with the mobility you can replace your jav, scorpion,cav without any problem and he is the only one roman who can do that

 

but as i said, maybe i m on the wrong way but for me it s like that and that s how i play him

 

Infantry is only unit where all Sullas commander abilities work it is clear that Sulla is suppose to be infantry commander.

 

Yes proscription is good ability but using it wont give any score you could spend ten minutes in combat and get 200 score while everybody else get all score. This is grinding game what is point of playing if you are forced to play in way that dont reward you?

 

Playing with 2 javs and one infantry dont work very well as triple cavalry build could just send one cavalry to block that one infantry and then hunt and destroy javelins with other 2 cavalry. Sulla is designed in the way that he is very slow killing enemies and every cavalry player on high tier exploit this. If you keep your javelins inside that infantry unit that wont work either as then archers and artillery instantly kill all your stacked units. Also if cavalry charge your stack you javelins still take massive damage even when infantry block the charge. If you dont stack that wont work either. Also triple infantry build just rapidly attack you and instantly route that one infantry attacking from all sides. Now that falxmen got boost that happens even faster.

 

Greek spears or pikes are so much better protecting missiles as they kill cavalry so much faster or totally block them with pike wall knockback. But anything of this dont work with Sulla. Sulla is slow moving and make damage slow it is just way too easy to avoid or block it. Only area where Sulla is better is protecting missile units from melee damage with proscription but most of cavalry is based charge damage.


Edited by Jakerp, 02 February 2018 - 06:54 PM.


Jakerp #4 Posted 02 February 2018 - 07:03 PM

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I have played a lot of games with sulla one inf and 2 javelins but it simply wont work. For example if you meet triple infantry germanicus what happen almoust every time. That germanicus player sends one infantry fight that one Sulla infantry and with vengeage he always wins. Then he send those 2 other infantry chase javelins. Then Sulla player is forced to constantly micromanage javelins or they die and same time micro manage that infantry unit or it dies to vengeage. If from some reason javelins can make damage then Germanicus can use testudo. Then javelins are totally useless and open to cavalry attacks.

 

After this whole match is just running around and not getting any score. Until some cavalry or greek archers finishes off javelins.

 

And if Sulla stops constantly microing all 3 units he loses instantly and propably without hardly any score.


Edited by Jakerp, 02 February 2018 - 07:06 PM.


WipeoutVasusu #5 Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:28 PM

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 I have played almoust 3000 battles and I have never seen ANY infantry Sulla player ever getting those same level TOP scores in aggression score

 maybe because he have a different role? he is not an aggressive commander but a defensive/support one?

 

also barbarian infantry doesn't win against anyone 1vs1 (they are even worse then sulla)

use proscription in order to help your allies and don't fight on your own.

 

 

 

N.B only falxmen can 1vs1 against sulla because they ignore shield (basically negating one of his abilities)  but the -60% attack is still a lot, they can win but with massive losses


Edited by WipeoutVasusu, 02 February 2018 - 08:42 PM.


SUNTZU_JoJo #6 Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:46 PM

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View PostJakerp, on 02 February 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

I have played a lot of games with sulla one inf and 2 javelins but it simply wont work. For example if you meet triple infantry germanicus what happen almoust every time. That germanicus player sends one infantry fight that one Sulla infantry and with vengeage he always wins. Then he send those 2 other infantry chase javelins. Then Sulla player is forced to constantly micromanage javelins or they die and same time micro manage that infantry unit or it dies to vengeage. If from some reason javelins can make damage then Germanicus can use testudo. Then javelins are totally useless and open to cavalry attacks.

 

After this whole match is just running around and not getting any score. Until some cavalry or greek archers finishes off javelins.

 

Personally I haven't played Sulla yet, so take the following with a grain of salt.

 

I've always assumed Sulla was more a support Commander, rather than standalone one.

So that Sulla works best & shines, when surrounded by allies.

 


Turning Sulla into a support Commanders, who can then handle himself well in a 1 VS 1, may turn him into to too much of an 'all-rounder'.


 

Or am I wrong in making this assumption? Please correct me if I am.

 

As for only lasting 35 seconds against Vengeance - as Miltiades, even with Hoplite Phalanx on - I melt just a easily so, I can understand the frustration; and I welcome you to my world for the past 2 years :D 

 

Germanicus is a good example of a standalone Commander,  with abilities for himself only, and that compliment the way he should be played, an offensive 1 VS 1 type of unit.

 

Whereas Sulla is played as a support unit, still able to deal a decent amount of damage, but not out-right win 1 VS 1 engagements.

 

Even though I am saying/assuming all of this, I am not against giving Sulla some specific ability to directly counter 1 type of unit (a bit like how Dogs counter Phalanx)..

 

View PostJakerp, on 02 February 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

And if Sulla stops constantly microing all 3 units he loses instantly and propably without hardly any score.

 

This is exactly what Miltiades is like...exactly.

 

Out of curiosity, is it not a good thing, the fact that you can take Roman Infantry with a Roman Commander that provides an alternative playstyle than simply 'Germanicus the Tank' ?

 

As you are a seasoned Sulla player, do you feel that his Weaknesses outweigh his Strengths?

Because as far as I am aware, from fighting Sulla, he can do pretty significant damage & is lethal in a party as an support, but still offensive Commander.

 

 

Those I my limited thoughts on Sulla,, what are your thoughts on the above? :)


Edited by SUNTZU_JoJo, 02 February 2018 - 08:47 PM.

...When ten to the enemy’s one, surround him;

...When five times his strength, attack him;

...If double his strength, divide him;
...If equally matched you may engage him;
...If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
...And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
...for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."

the Art of War, by Sun Tzu

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Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #7 Posted 02 February 2018 - 11:23 PM

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maybe he can use his 3 spells only on inf but, when you play ynane pikes for exemple you use only one and it work.

 

on cav for exemple there is no another cav who can fight you and you have a barb mobility.

on jav you have a insane mobility, you can apply proscription without any prob and if a cav charge you you are anoying for them cause proscription (and you can dodge them whith whip) they have trouble to touch you and with whip you have a "correct" melee and your inf unit have the time to come help


Edited by Im_Melliana_I_burn_you, 02 February 2018 - 11:24 PM.

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Jakerp #8 Posted 03 February 2018 - 09:13 AM

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View PostIm_Melliana_I_burn_you, on 02 February 2018 - 11:23 PM, said:

maybe he can use his 3 spells only on inf but, when you play ynane pikes for exemple you use only one and it work.

 

on cav for exemple there is no another cav who can fight you and you have a barb mobility.

on jav you have a insane mobility, you can apply proscription without any prob and if a cav charge you you are anoying for them cause proscription (and you can dodge them whith whip) they have trouble to touch you and with whip you have a "correct" melee and your inf unit have the time to come help

 

Yeah but is you try to play Sulla with 1 inf and 2 javelin build all vercinxetorix X tier cav units WIN that Sulla one infantry unit in melee with just ONE cavalry unit using defiance. (if he uses all 3 cav then that one sulla infantry dies in 5s). At least fully upgraded T8 inf loses to X tier vercinxetorix cavalry in melee like no tomorrow. Then that Vercinxetorix cavalry player have 2 cavalry units free to hunt those javelins. Without even need to use fire. If Sulla try to hide in some corner then that Vercingetorix just use fire but that vercingetorix can also win Sulla one inf just frontally meleeing it.´with cavalry.

 

What is point of playing immobile defensive commander if it loses against everything and vercingetorix cavalry have fire too additional way of beating you if that defiance menee thing wont do it? And developers keep constantly buffing more mobile units like falxmen to be able to beat immobile classes? What is point of being tank commarder if it is like butter against everything pikes, artillery, javelins, vercingetorix cavalry, germanicus vengeage, falxmen? :D

 

 


Edited by Jakerp, 03 February 2018 - 09:16 AM.


Jakerp #9 Posted 03 February 2018 - 09:47 AM

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View PostSUNTZU_JoJo, on 02 February 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

 

Personally I haven't played Sulla yet, so take the following with a grain of salt.

 

I've always assumed Sulla was more a support Commander, rather than standalone one.

So that Sulla works best & shines, when surrounded by allies.

 


Turning Sulla into a support Commanders, who can then handle himself well in a 1 VS 1, may turn him into to too much of an 'all-rounder'.


 

Or am I wrong in making this assumption? Please correct me if I am.

 

As for only lasting 35 seconds against Vengeance - as Miltiades, even with Hoplite Phalanx on - I melt just a easily so, I can understand the frustration; and I welcome you to my world for the past 2 years :D 

 

Germanicus is a good example of a standalone Commander,  with abilities for himself only, and that compliment the way he should be played, an offensive 1 VS 1 type of unit.

 

Whereas Sulla is played as a support unit, still able to deal a decent amount of damage, but not out-right win 1 VS 1 engagements.

 

Even though I am saying/assuming all of this, I am not against giving Sulla some specific ability to directly counter 1 type of unit (a bit like how Dogs counter Phalanx)..

 

 

This is exactly what Miltiades is like...exactly.

 

Out of curiosity, is it not a good thing, the fact that you can take Roman Infantry with a Roman Commander that provides an alternative playstyle than simply 'Germanicus the Tank' ?

 

As you are a seasoned Sulla player, do you feel that his Weaknesses outweigh his Strengths?

Because as far as I am aware, from fighting Sulla, he can do pretty significant damage & is lethal in a party as an support, but still offensive Commander.

 

 

Those I my limited thoughts on Sulla,, what are your thoughts on the above? :)

 

Yes but Mitiades is faster than Sulla he can avoid combat when he cant win while Sulla quite often cannot also Mitiades spears are very good against most of mobile units like cavalry but Sulla cannot do anything to counter Vercingetorix cavalry fire harassing and defiance cavalry melee trick also quite often WINS Sulla infantry in melee making all defensive skills pretty much useless as cavalry is faster and better in melee and damage making than slower Sulla. Mitiades can easily debuff cavalry with fear and kill it Vercingetorix cav. Also Mitiades can also be played with pikes that removes most of Mitiades weaknesses in frontal combat against swords infantry. In game mechanics there is at least 10-15 ways countering Sullas fortify mode but there is only 2-3 ways countering pikes and many of those ways countering pikes require team play or dont even work always that way but many of those ways counterin sulla work even in solo play. Balance? :D (and developers keep adding even more ways of countering sulla like boosting falxmen)

 

Sure Sulla is support commander but debuffing enemies with proscription wont give any score forcing any sulla player play a lot more battles than with other commander to grind up to tier 10. Sulla is ok with javelins but on high tier Caesar is so much better with javelins and give a lot more utility caesars combat buff and silence are a lot better than Sulla proscription and can cover a lot more situlations. What is point of playing the way that wont give any rewards like running around debuffing it just help other to steal all kills and score but dont reward person who is doing it?

 

Hybrid build where Sulla combine multiple different unit types wont work well with Sulla either as every unit is micromanagement heavy as Sulla need to re-use whip constantly and try to micro manage javelins, architecti same time. None of Sulla unit is fire and forget type like Germanicus with Vengeage. Also Sulla immobile nature make many of his skill counter productive when defending missile units if sulla uses fortify it makes just easier cavalry to go around him. Also Sulla low damage potential against like cavalry make even more window of oppurtunity cavalry to counter Sulla or just mow trough any gaps. Spears makes so hellish damage against cavalry that even one poor move is lethal for cavalry but not against Sulla infantry. Sulla nature of being good at deflecting charge is pointless in game where one of best high tier cavalry is vercingetorix cavalry that rely on fire and defiance (melee skills) making charge deflect useless stat when countering cavalry.

 

Sure Sulla is good staying alive and reach enemy base if you play Sulla correctly but developers of this game added 3000 score cap in grinding capping score plus even one men archer unit can decap 3 sulla infantry as Sulla dont have testudo. Developers of this game reduced one of only way of grinding score with Sulla but they give Germicus ways of grinding aggression score, defence score with testudo and better grinding of capping score as missile units cant decap germanicus.


Edited by Jakerp, 03 February 2018 - 09:55 AM.


Disprezzo #10 Posted 03 February 2018 - 12:33 PM

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it would be good if sulla gets points defending in melee with his skill just like germanicus does blocking missiles in testudo

Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #11 Posted 03 February 2018 - 03:35 PM

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View PostJakerp, on 03 February 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

 

Yeah but is you try to play Sulla with 1 inf and 2 javelin build all vercinxetorix X tier cav units WIN that Sulla one infantry unit in melee with just ONE cavalry unit using defiance. (if he uses all 3 cav then that one sulla infantry dies in 5s). At least fully upgraded T8 inf loses to X tier vercinxetorix cavalry in melee like no tomorrow. Then that Vercinxetorix cavalry player have 2 cavalry units free to hunt those javelins. Without even need to use fire. If Sulla try to hide in some corner then that Vercingetorix just use fire but that vercingetorix can also win Sulla one inf just frontally meleeing it.´with cavalry.

 

What is point of playing immobile defensive commander if it loses against everything and vercingetorix cavalry have fire too additional way of beating you if that defiance menee thing wont do it? And developers keep constantly buffing more mobile units like falxmen to be able to beat immobile classes? What is point of being tank commarder if it is like butter against everything pikes, artillery, javelins, vercingetorix cavalry, germanicus vengeage, falxmen? :D

 

 

 

hum with caltrops + whips and procription you can rekt him. defiance is not unbeatable and Sylla is one rly good option against that

For me playing as 3 inf on Sylla is a big mistakes cause you have nothing to cover your weakness


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Jakerp #12 Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:01 AM

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View PostIm_Melliana_I_burn_you, on 03 February 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

 

hum with caltrops + whips and procription you can rekt him. defiance is not unbeatable and Sylla is one rly good option against that

For me playing as 3 inf on Sylla is a big mistakes cause you have nothing to cover your weakness

 

Ok lest go largest weaknesses of sulla step by step. One of largest weakness is triple javelins how do you beat that with just 1 javelin and two inf? Those triple javelins firepower totally overwhelm your one javelin. If you try to chase their javelins with infantry they use caltrops and vici to give -20% speed and you cant even use whip for long time. It is about the same with 2 javelins and one inf.

 

(if you play triple javelins with Sulla that wont reduce number of weaknesses either as it adds new weakness plus sulla is weaker javelin commander than caesar at high tier games as caesar utility skills like silence and speed debuff and combat buffs help team a lot more than proscription. Also caesars buff work more flexible and allow caesar javelin player manouver after using buffs but is Sulla javelin use his only debuff he need to stand near melee or even that one debuff wont work.).

 

 


Edited by Jakerp, 04 February 2018 - 10:05 AM.


Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #13 Posted 04 February 2018 - 10:48 AM

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the prob is you speak like you are alone on the game on 1v1

think you have ally to cover your weakness too especialy in platoon


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Jakerp #14 Posted 04 February 2018 - 11:09 AM

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View PostIm_Melliana_I_burn_you, on 04 February 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

the prob is you speak like you are alone on the game on 1v1

think you have ally to cover your weakness too especialy in platoon

 

Yeah but fact that you still need other people to cover Sulla no matter what build you play kind of proves my point.

Lee_Nox #15 Posted 04 February 2018 - 05:45 PM

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[Warning] This is nothing but a personal opinion.the sulla I'm talking about is the infantry one.

 

To say that Sulla is a support commander is an exaggeration, the only commander that i see fit for that role is Caesar and maybe Boudicca.

The way I perceive Sulla, is an offensive commander, getting the first blood in a game and engaging with the enemy as soon as possible and keep him(the enemy) occupied in melee, as Sulla is very capable to fight in melee for an extended period of time with little to no significant damage to his units .

In a perfect game, Sulla draws the first blood, reducing the enemy's aggression and holding the engagement with the Fortify formation for his teammates to bring reinforcement, it's easy to jump into melee say with Germanicus when your ally Sulla has already used his Prescription (i don't care how many, Prescription + Vengeance will often do the job). The bottom line is, everyone has to support Sulla not the other way around.


                                                                                                                                           

Jakerp #16 Posted 05 February 2018 - 08:19 AM

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View PostLee_Nox, on 04 February 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

[Warning] This is nothing but a personal opinion.the sulla I'm talking about is the infantry one.

 

To say that Sulla is a support commander is an exaggeration, the only commander that i see fit for that role is Caesar and maybe Boudicca.

The way I perceive Sulla, is an offensive commander, getting the first blood in a game and engaging with the enemy as soon as possible and keep him(the enemy) occupied in melee, as Sulla is very capable to fight in melee for an extended period of time with little to no significant damage to his units .

In a perfect game, Sulla draws the first blood, reducing the enemy's aggression and holding the engagement with the Fortify formation for his teammates to bring reinforcement, it's easy to jump into melee say with Germanicus when your ally Sulla has already used his Prescription (i don't care how many, Prescription + Vengeance will often do the job). The bottom line is, everyone has to support Sulla not the other way around.

 

Btw. This is how it theory, it should happen, but on random battles it never happens. The Sulla is perfect opening the battle and positioning units in the way that charge commanders can hit the enemy in the flanks and rear and then activate proscription to reduce the enemy charge deflect. At this point those commanders who play charge classes should come in and charge in. The Sulla is not supporting the class like Caesar with javelins or boydicca with dogs. The Sulla is more Carry / initiator of melee battle. Sulla is also great delaying enemy. But in reality you are lucky in 1 in 100 players wait and wont jolo charge in until sulla is allready opened battle and debuffed enemy charge deflect (even at T10 battles),

 



Lee_Nox #17 Posted 05 February 2018 - 03:15 PM

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View PostJakerp, on 05 February 2018 - 09:19 AM, said:

 

Btw. This is how it theory, it should happen, but on random battles it never happens. The Sulla is perfect opening the battle and positioning units in the way that charge commanders can hit the enemy in the flanks and rear and then activate proscription to reduce the enemy charge deflect. At this point those commanders who play charge classes should come in and charge in. The Sulla is not supporting the class like Caesar with javelins or boydicca with dogs. The Sulla is more Carry / initiator of melee battle. Sulla is also great delaying enemy. But in reality you are lucky in 1 in 100 players wait and wont jolo charge in until sulla is allready opened battle and debuffed enemy charge deflect (even at T10 battles),

 

 

Indeed, that's what i meant by "In a perfect game". Sullla is heavily dependent on team play and assistance (for maximum results that is).
                                                                                                                                           

PaiNzzz #18 Posted 06 February 2018 - 02:22 PM

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Teamwork? In random battles? You must be new here! :D

XIIl_DarkDusT #19 Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:56 AM

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I would agree on sula being way to underpowered.

Without Ceasar backing him, close to no impact. With? Still hardly worth is vs germanicus is most games.

Jake is pretty spot on in my oppinion.



Jakerp #20 Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:27 AM

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View PostSUNTZU_DarkDusT, on 11 February 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

I would agree on sula being way to underpowered.

Without Ceasar backing him, close to no impact. With? Still hardly worth is vs germanicus is most games.

Jake is pretty spot on in my oppinion.

 

Yeah infantry Sulla is pretty weak if not backed up by either Caesar or Boydicca.

 

Problem is that most of games other team is full of Germanicus players and pike players and missile units there is no point playing infantry commander that is weak against Germanicus, pikes and missiles (read the majority of what people play). I have played Sulla 1000 battles and quite often 90% of enemy team is composed of units that can beat Sulla. Now that Elefants (the ultimate formation breaker units are coming and falxgetting damage boosts) you really start to ask what is point of playing Sulla (with infantry)?

 

Sure there are commanders and units that infantry Sulla can beat but most of them are more mobile than Sulla with infantry and they generally avoid Sulla in every battle. Sulla is ok with Javelins but Caesar is much better with Javelins at end game and provide more utility when you get to T10. Sulla is not as good as other options in game protecting missile units either becouse of low damage against cavalry and poor mobility (sure Sulla protecting missiles is better than no protection at all but those other options are so much better from game mechanic sence and tactically). Sulla have to run from Javelins, pikes, Germanicus vengeage making it impossible to hold ground and buy missile units time to shoot (all other option can hold ground better than infantry Sulla).

 

If you want to play a lot of scorpions then Sulla is propably best option also in solo gaming as you can build stakes fast and you have at least some protection against chasing with rapid stakes building.


Edited by Jakerp, 11 February 2018 - 11:28 AM.






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