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Pike abuse


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Xarthare #1 Posted 27 January 2018 - 07:29 PM

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The current state of pike units is to strong, when the unit deploys pike it will mow everything in front of it, and escaping, most of the times, is impossible.

Some players will abuse of this mechanic, and sometimes we can see pikes deployed in an absurd way through the enemy base, making it impossible to get there.

This will also happen when you are near a cliff, the pike unit will abuse its movement to keepitself in a position that can't be targeted. 

When pikes turn in a 180 degree they are with their pikes deployed, this should not happen.Also if a cav unit or infantry chargers pikes from the back the formation should break completely, what happens, most times, is the unit won't break and your units will be infront of the pikes getting killed by it.

Pikes should have fatigue or some kind of mechanic that prevents them from runing a pike wall of death towards the enemy

Also if the unit is with pikes deployed it should not be able to use the commander ability of fight in the shade, although this is not as good as testudo it makes it absurdly good.

Edited by Xarthare, 27 January 2018 - 07:31 PM.


_Barosz_ #2 Posted 27 January 2018 - 07:41 PM

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View PostXarthare, on 27 January 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

Also if the unit is with pikes deployed it should not be able to use the commander ability of fight in the shade, although this is not as good as testudo it makes it absurdly good.

read the pach notes....


Only a response that raises more questions is a good answer..

Cpt_Cataphract #3 Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:04 PM

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I dont want to offend anyone but a pike isnt so strong as you think .Pike can  die from many enemies like ceasar divide and conqueror that stops you from deploy pikes ,oath of perseverance and war cry ,archers and javelins ,war dogs destroy you completely if you are in pike formation .When you run with your pike and charged surprisingly you loose all unit completely .I will embed some video .First video is 1v1 with miltiades pike second is my pike always enemy frontally cause this is her great problem

Edited by Cpt_Cataphract, 27 January 2018 - 10:05 PM.


Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #4 Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:23 PM

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oath and warcry kill a pikes phalanx? XD

in which world?

 

ok for the reste but pikes dont care about scipio


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Cpt_Cataphract #5 Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:43 PM

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View PostIm_Melliana_I_burn_you, on 27 January 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

oath and warcry kill a pikes phalanx? XD

in which world?

 

ok for the reste but pikes dont care about scipio

 

IF you charge in flanks warcry and oath pikes have great problem unless someone use battlecry.

 



Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #6 Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:46 PM

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if you charge in flank everything can rout them not only scipio
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Arclinon #7 Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:51 PM

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Mandatory post (aka im too lazy to write atm):

 



Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #8 Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:37 PM

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he dont charge before his phalanx and the other suicide on him...

and for the moral, the romans are far better

 

so yes pikes are stupid but on your vid we just see romans mistakes


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Xarthare #9 Posted 28 January 2018 - 12:31 AM

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Any player knows that if you charge pikes on the flanks you can attack them. The point here is they turn their pikes through themselves, this is not something i agree with or the fact they deploy pikes in a split of a second as sometimes ppl will charge and at point blank get a pike wall. There should be a limit to these.

Pikes are not god like, but if you charge from behind your units should not end up in the front of the wall and die as a result. This applies to all units, specially greek cav that cause heavy damage on them, but end up in front of pikes, and as a result will die, unless the unit routs or you have a friend with you to charge as well.

The way pikes move is just wrong. And as Melliana said, any unit charged from the flanks will rout, but this is knows by ppl who have played the game for a while.

The problem with pikes is simple, if the new map ends up being a capture the flag or if in the future wargaming and CA develop maps with that in mind and if pikes still works as it works now it will rush to the entrances and make it impossible to pass through. Sometimes you don't get queued with range or arty that can deal with pikes, and i don't think roman pilla and verci torches are strong enough to deal with 3 units of pikes. Just rework how they maneuvre. And we can all agree that despite this not being an history class no man would survive if a X meter long toothpick crossed him over, if they want to turn around they have to disengage pikes or at least lit them.

After watching the last video no one can say that pikes are working properly....

Also Capt. Cataphract your argument is not correct. Pikes will only die from oath if, and i say IF you are lucky to charge them and they do not deploy, but this isn't the case most times.
 

Edited by Xarthare, 28 January 2018 - 03:00 AM.


ChaiDogsLiveLongNProsper #10 Posted 28 January 2018 - 04:34 AM

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View PostXarthare, on 27 January 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:

Some players will abuse of this mechanic, and sometimes we can see pikes deployed in an absurd way through the enemy base, making it impossible to get there.
what do you mean lol


ThatPikeGuy #11 Posted 28 January 2018 - 10:20 AM

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Some points about pikes in a very non-organized manner, didn't really have much time to make it look nice nor to add everything I want - https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing
pls buff pike surfing

Xarthare #12 Posted 28 January 2018 - 11:46 AM

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My point was to create awareness. Had no idea this document existed in the first place. As someone that sees my entire team running because a player with 3 pikes or 2 pikes and one unit or archers is coming it forced me to take action. As someone that plays roman and barbarian cav and roman infantry from my point of view the unit is insanely overpowered at the moment.

Not sure if this is a bug or an issue with repositioning of pikes, but as was shown in one of the videos sometimes i will be dealing with the same pike unit in 2 different places or the unit will just have its formation completely broken but still under phalanx what makes it impossible to reach but still kills everyone who touches near it.

Also, on a different note, when a unit gets trapped or attacked by pikes, from just one angle, i don't think the entire unit should succumb to the pikes, as have been the case sometimes. I try to run, but to no effect because the unit just gets pushed back and killed, i suggest to kill the first units but the ones that are behind to escape, doesn't make much sense that a unit that unit models that are not touching the pikes don't be allowed to run.

The point of providing visual evidence is to show ppl that pikes have a strange way to deploy in the field, otherwise we are just being bias about it. Most ppl who play units who are op do not desire to see that unit nerfed, honestly i do not agree with this hide policy some ppl take part hoping it won't be changed. Scipio was changed and i still play it all the time as my main general, it is just a matter of adapting to the new circumstances.

After reading the document i agree with the points the author made.

Cpt_Cataphract #13 Posted 28 January 2018 - 01:59 PM

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Here is a video that you can see clearly that pike dont need any change and in following video you will see Germanicus tier 8 player using opening for his own benefit and by strategic decision he saves his barbarian ally .

Shaun_Rasmussen #14 Posted 28 January 2018 - 08:37 PM

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View PostCpt_Cataphract, on 28 January 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

Here is a video that you can see clearly that pike dont need any change and in following video you will see Germanicus tier 8 player using opening for his own benefit and by strategic decision he saves his barbarian ally .

 

 

Okay so you seriously show yourself using 1 pike at a time instead of 3 against 4 units plus arty focusing you.  You still did good damange and tbh didn't even micro the 1 pike very well at all.  This is supporting anything other than pikes being balanced. 



Bronze_Spear #15 Posted 29 January 2018 - 05:56 AM

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Blood Drinker IV- 1,000,000 kills achievement

 



Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #16 Posted 29 January 2018 - 08:20 AM

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the prob ihe pike mobiliy in phalanx and the fact one t4 can destroy tX

another prob is that insta phalanx. 0,5 sec to be in perfect formation just lol

And the phalanx is bugged. When you charge and they phalanx it s IMPOSSIBLE to back.


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Jakerp #17 Posted 29 January 2018 - 10:02 AM

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My largest moan with pikes are that Sulla should be a lot better tanking pikes when in fortify mode and using proscription. Being defensive / tanking commander is pretty much pointless if you cant tank pikes and help other people playing sword infantry get flanking chances with tanking pike mowing. Why this game gives pikes good commander countering dogs to pike players (Leonidas) but roman swords dont get any commander countering pike mowing? I think Sulla should be that commander who can tank pikes to protect other roman swords from mowing following same principle that leonidas is commander who can kill dogs and eliminate one of pikes largest weakness.

 

To make things worse game designers push this game toward direction where Sulla cant tank virtually anything not pikes, germanicus vengeage wins Sulla, Falxmen are made better beating Sulla tanking. Where Sulla weakness list is long list, javelins, archers, arty, leonidas, pikes. Then Leonidas with 2 pikes and one spear to protect flanks of pikes simply hardly have any weaknesses at all they have anti missile mode, pikes destroy swords like no tomorrow, shield bash beats dogs. If leonidas play with 2 pikes and 1 spear build they can easily protect flanks of pikes with that spear unit and make it death trap for cavalry.


Edited by Jakerp, 29 January 2018 - 10:04 AM.


Xarthare #18 Posted 29 January 2018 - 12:28 PM

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View PostCpt_Cataphract, on 28 January 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

Here is a video that you can see clearly that pike dont need any change and in following video you will see Germanicus tier 8 player using opening for his own benefit and by strategic decision he saves his barbarian ally .

 

So you want me to believe in your word? As Shaun said you are being targeted by catapults, being attacked by roman infantry and barbarian infantry and still deal good damage to them and call it balanced?

Not pointing the finger here, but as Shaun said as well your micro of pikes is not that good since you just rely on phalanx to kill everything.

A group that chooses a team composition of pikes and archers is basically a walking death cube. I've nothing against teaming up and playing with friends, since i do it, i do have a problem when pikes seem like a meatgrinder of death.

Also with so many good choke points there you choose the worst one that left your flanks exposed? How is this legit proof the pikes are not op?

ThatPikeGuy #19 Posted 29 January 2018 - 01:04 PM

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Just disgusting. Defending pikes like that is making you fight an uphill battle, I hope you know that.


pls buff pike surfing

RVallez #20 Posted 29 January 2018 - 01:48 PM

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I really don't know how one can defend the way pikes are right now. It's the same as people saying that T10 Defiance with T10 cavalry is OK, or back in the days when dogs were more like Velociraptors and yet there were people saying it wasn't OP.

I believe that making the Sarissa do damage only on the tip and removing the hitting animation is the way to go, that would prevent people from moving forward because the enemy unit would go through the spear and be able to hit the pike unit without being stuck in the hitting animation.




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