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What is the purpose of Barbarian archer?


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WipeoutVasusu #1 Posted 19 January 2018 - 10:25 PM

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why they exist? when compared with greek archer they have, less damage, less armor, less range and there isn't a commander for them

(the bonus that Arminius, Boudica and Vercingetorix have for them are a joke and should be changed with an actual useful talent for infantry/cav)

 

so, what could change?

 

1. increase their AP damage.

since their range and damage are lower at least their should have a decent AP damage, something like 15/20/25 would be nice and they would actually be useful against armored units but still lose against other archer/slinger/jav

 

2. give them some fighting capability

would be interesting if they could be a half infantry/half archer unit, their archer stat are already mediocre, maybe they could be like the dogs handler in combat, since their unit is already small they shouldn't be able to deal too much damage. they could flank and hold the line a little against infantry and cav.


Edited by WipeoutVasusu, 22 January 2018 - 11:08 AM.


Shaun_Rasmussen #2 Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:20 PM

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Good ideas.  Sucks they are totally irrelevant when there are so many options to make them fun.  Other ideas are make them ridiculously hard to see in grass and forest and make hunt not work on them (or any barbs) No debuffs in forest and of course flaming arrow ability to synergize with morale damage of other barb units



ChaiDogsLiveLongNProsper #3 Posted 20 January 2018 - 01:28 AM

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shoot fire arrow with slightly reduced range all the time!

JonatheOrange #4 Posted 20 January 2018 - 09:01 AM

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They are made to distract, slow and confuse the enemy. Firstly the enemy will be distracted by the arrows coming towards them, this distraction will slow the enemy as they start to zig and zag incase its a real threat shooting at them like greek archers. Once the enemy discovers its barb archers the mass confusion will begin, in many cases the enemy will take their hands off the mouse and keyboard to scratch their heads in confusion wondering why someone would waste so much xp. This can buy you a good 3mins to escape as they laugh and wonder in amusement why they bothered zigging and zagging in the first place.

PaiNzzz #5 Posted 22 January 2018 - 02:20 PM

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View PostJonatheOrange, on 20 January 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

They are made to distract, slow and confuse the enemy. Firstly the enemy will be distracted by the arrows coming towards them, this distraction will slow the enemy as they start to zig and zag incase its a real threat shooting at them like greek archers. Once the enemy discovers its barb archers the mass confusion will begin, in many cases the enemy will take their hands off the mouse and keyboard to scratch their heads in confusion wondering why someone would waste so much xp. This can buy you a good 3mins to escape as they laugh and wonder in amusement why they bothered zigging and zagging in the first place.

 

ahahahahahah very well said sir!

 

Now really regarding barb archers, I do wonder myself. I haven't checked the stats of the barbarian archers, because without an archer commander I don't find any reason to prefer them over the Greek ones.

Having Cynane's Rapid Advance seriously increases mobility letting you escape almost all (if not all) infantry, Hunt is useful against wavering units and difficult to see units, you only need to see them for 2 sec to hunt, and barrage, well, I don't need to say anything now, do I? Choosing any generic commander and try to match an archer-dedicated one would be... inefficient to say the least.

 

So barb archers either need improvements to hold their own or need a dedicated commander. Maybe give them an element of surprise, such as morale damage or extra damage when ambushing someone while hidden or something.



Generalissimus_Lucius #6 Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:05 PM

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View PostJonatheOrange, on 20 January 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

They are made to distract, slow and confuse the enemy. Firstly the enemy will be distracted by the arrows coming towards them, this distraction will slow the enemy as they start to zig and zag incase its a real threat shooting at them like greek archers. Once the enemy discovers its barb archers the mass confusion will begin, in many cases the enemy will take their hands off the mouse and keyboard to scratch their heads in confusion wondering why someone would waste so much xp. This can buy you a good 3mins to escape as they laugh and wonder in amusement why they bothered zigging and zagging in the first place.

 

that is so funny. because it will NEVER work in "real"(game) life.

there are 10 enemies. you cant evade more than 2, on these small maps, and also the Barbarian troops are not really a good "support", since they just lose to any other faction.

 

the point of the topic owner is super valid.



Jakerp #7 Posted 22 January 2018 - 11:33 PM

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Yeah there are issues with barb archers like barb archers need to rely on unit abilities that eatch of them like snipe or ambush flurry have 8s -50% speed debuff making barb archers unable to dodge arrow or flee attacks but greek archers barrage last only 3s and after that they can move 100% speed or even faster if they use rapid advance. So Greek archers can dodge shot best from all missile units if played by Cynane.

 

This game gives quite a lot good things to greek archers. Like extremely good damage, extremely good arrow deflect (high tier greek archers could have thousands of defence score in many games), better arrow dodging (as there is no mobility debuffs and greeks have rapid advance).

 

But things could be worse with barb archers you could snipe kill slingers almoust everygame and force them just run. So there is that. :D Sadly there seems to be even less slingers on high tier games than barb archers. So there is hardly never anything to snipe. :D

 

 


Edited by Jakerp, 22 January 2018 - 11:34 PM.


JonatheOrange #8 Posted 23 January 2018 - 01:31 AM

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View PostGeneralissimus_Lucius, on 22 January 2018 - 05:05 PM, said:

 

that is so funny. because it will NEVER work in "real"(game) life.

there are 10 enemies. you cant evade more than 2, on these small maps, and also the Barbarian troops are not really a good "support", since they just lose to any other faction.

 

the point of the topic owner is super valid.

 

actually it works vs all 10 enemies at once, each and every one of them will wonder why you wasted so much xp.

wolfiena #9 Posted 23 January 2018 - 05:22 AM

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I think the purpose is to give their Greek counterpart a good laugh.

Jakerp #10 Posted 23 January 2018 - 08:13 AM

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Barb archers could really use more utility and their unit skills should be reworked making them more usefull for kiting shots and kiting playstyle. For example barbarian version of ambush flurry and rapid shot should give small running bonus at second phase instead of speed debuff that makes impossible to dodge barrage. Snipe could remain as it is giving speed debuff so using that long range shot skill remains more tactical.

 

Also I dont understand why Boydicca cant use her ultimate with archers giving ability to buff friendlies with Boydicca ultimate with barb archers would give them a lot more utility.

 

Barb archers short range bows are almoust totally useless as going to closer to shoot is just death wish making it easier to spot barb archers why units that have best spotting range from any units even have short range bow option it kind of negate any advantages good spotting gives? I think barb archers only should have long range bow options when they choose upgrades. (this part is my humble opinion as one of only active T9 - T10 barb archer player).



Shaun_Rasmussen #11 Posted 23 January 2018 - 05:45 PM

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Great idea Jakerp.  I've played them to tier 7 is all, but with their current unit abilities switching from a speed debuff to a buff would make sense.  This would play into the hit and run style of barbs.  Rebellion available to archers along with Fury (for the  missile block and speed) would also help make them viable.  

Jakerp #12 Posted 24 January 2018 - 09:09 AM

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View PostShaun_Rasmussen, on 23 January 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

Great idea Jakerp.  I've played them to tier 7 is all, but with their current unit abilities switching from a speed debuff to a buff would make sense.  This would play into the hit and run style of barbs.  Rebellion available to archers along with Fury (for the  missile block and speed) would also help make them viable.  

 

I think making rebellion buff available to barb archers could alone make them more desarable even when they have poorer damage than greeks as rebellion buff is quite good. Also with rebellion buff barb archers could reward infantry players who protect them so that alone would make it desirable for infantry to protect them and that buff also helps temporarily barb archers last longer in melee.

 

Fury also could be barb archers kiting and dodging barrage skill barb archers charge stat could be made so poor that people wont use it for charging but dodging and kiting. Those two chances could make barb archers bit more playable on high tiers.


Edited by Jakerp, 24 January 2018 - 09:12 AM.


Jakerp #13 Posted 24 January 2018 - 10:07 AM

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So this is not just words here are some facts to cover my claims. Here is archer duel one T9 FULLY upgraded barb archer with every possible best upgrade having archer duel against one T9 greek archer.  I dont really understand why greek archers are given at high tiers best damage, best stats, best arror deflect, best missile damge skills (barrage), best mobility and dodge skills (rapid advance), best spotting skill (hunt). Greek archers skills dont even have any MASSIVE debuff periods like every other missile units skills have in their skills they use every other missile unit in game have long speed debuff periods in skills.. If you combine all the fact all other missile options are almoust useless and they might as well be removed from game and they propably have been if player base is looked. Greek archers are better even from behind shots than javelins even taking their role in the game. If javelins would not have buffs and utility skills with caesar they would be also as useless as slingers and barb archers are made in high tiers.

 

I would love to ask from developers if this is considered "balanced"?

Spoiler

 

Also if you look at player base at high tier where almoust everybody is abandoning other missile options than greek archers alone proves that missiles are not balanced in high tier games.


Edited by Jakerp, 24 January 2018 - 10:16 AM.


PaiNzzz #14 Posted 24 January 2018 - 10:40 AM

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Actually tier 7 and 9 Greek archers trade a lot of mobility for their survivability. Tier 7 archers I'm currently at are really slow, can't effectively dodge or evade infantry, and shooting while kiting is not an option with their ~3,5 m/s movement speed. Tier 8 and 10 are lighter, which means more mobile and less resilient.

 

I'm not saying anything about their balance, I'm just saying playing them when used to faster archers is kind of less fun and requires you to adjust your entire gameplay...

 

Well, not that you could somehow defeat those archers somehow, but you shouldn't have engaged them in the first place because by tier 9 you already know what would happen. So, archers are prime targets for other archers, unless you are a barbarian? wtf



Jakerp #15 Posted 24 January 2018 - 11:26 AM

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View PostPaiNzzz, on 24 January 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

Well, not that you could somehow defeat those archers somehow, but you shouldn't have engaged them in the first place because by tier 9 you already know what would happen. So, archers are prime targets for other archers, unless you are a barbarian? wtf

 

Sure you can always run away but there are many HUGE problems in that game dont give score for running whole match, barbarian archers skill dont support kiting style of playing becouse of those 8s speed debuffs in every skill. Sure you can always not use unit skills but then barb archers low damage and range is then even lower. Then you can shot some spear hoplite like 10 times and it loses 5% hp at T9 and T10. :D On high tier games even classes that dont have testudo or fight in the shade wont bother avoiding barb arrows as they make so low damage when shot frontally. :D (behind shots dont work either as low damage allow people lot of time counter move it)

 

Also when you play with random people they 99% of time they dont run back if barbarian archers is forced back to avoid barrage. Then barbarian archer is totally exposed to cavalry attacks and get rekt. So game gives barbarian archer to choose from run back exposed position and die to cavalry attack or stay and die in barrage. Even without barrage barbarian archers lose against greek archers (not as large but still lose).Teams dont want you as barbarian archers are so much weaker than greek ones grinding score and exp fast (and this tells quite a lot that they are not even option). Kiting in this game means same as wasting a lot of time not getting exp and silver kiting means massive amonth of micromanaging and is hard and not rewarding compared to just activating barrage and getting 5000 aggression score.

 

Then there is option try to shot from hidden like in forest but even in this have huge probems skills dont support kiting style of play and even if one unit can establish spotting even in couple of seconds to barb archers greeks can instantly rekt them with barrage and in team games it is very easy to just crash suicide one cavalry into forest to establish spotting and barrage kill barb archers instantly. Also people quite often dont even come where you are hiding and you just waste time. Also on random games other people never wait near your ambush they always run forward and attack making whole ambush tactics counter productive waste of time as tactic that go against grinding nature of this game. People dont want waste time on grinding games they dont care that ambush always fails how they play. That alone makes ambushing almoust useless.

 

If you have any other idea I probally can tell why they dont work in this game as I have played hundreds of battles with barb archers? I have also tested a lot of combination and tactics with them.


Edited by Jakerp, 24 January 2018 - 11:40 AM.


PaiNzzz #16 Posted 24 January 2018 - 12:58 PM

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Nothing to add really, I agree with everything. If it makes you feel better greek t7 archers kinda suck hard too, especially with MM matching you vs tier 8-9-10 all the time. Their movement speed man, almost as slow as heavy infantry. Frontal barrage on Royal Spartans yesterday (Miltiades, no buffs or formations and stuff) with me having correct positioning (arrows shooting straight, not lobbed) took out around 5-8% of their HP. Then I ran back to not get rekt by them and got rekt by a single cavalry charge. xD

 

Especially the part that they don't bother at all. Firing frontally on same tier heavy infantry (Scythian Archers vs Veteran Legionaries) some missiles miss, of those that hit ~50% of missiles are passively blocked and the rest 50% that passes through shields does 6 damage. After playing all the game on edge you end up with 1500 aggression and 90k damage. Then you come here and see people complaining about OP archers that they have never played with -_-

 

Irrelevant to the current topic, but during Roman week I had my Germanicus charge, popped formed combat and vengeance and went to warm up my pizza and feed my cat. When I came back I was dead, having dealt 144k damage, and we won. Germanics with heavy inf what the most f boring and brainless thing I've ever played.



Generalissimus_Lucius #17 Posted 24 January 2018 - 01:22 PM

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I agree. there are lots of flaws for the barbarian archers, compared to greeks

Jakerp #18 Posted 25 January 2018 - 08:25 AM

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Well developers are allready working on archer forcused barbarian commander as they feel that it is best way to fix barb archer issues

View PostPaiNzzz, on 24 January 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

Nothing to add really, I agree with everything. If it makes you feel better greek t7 archers kinda suck hard too, especially with MM matching you vs tier 8-9-10 all the time. Their movement speed man, almost as slow as heavy infantry. Frontal barrage on Royal Spartans yesterday (Miltiades, no buffs or formations and stuff) with me having correct positioning (arrows shooting straight, not lobbed) took out around 5-8% of their HP. Then I ran back to not get rekt by them and got rekt by a single cavalry charge. xD

 

Yeah but am playing fully upgraded T9 barbarian archer and it wont do hardly any damage at all to T9 Mitiades or Alexander spearhoplites and even less to roman infantry. You dont need testudo to avoid damage. It also wont damage T8+ javelins as they have shield raise. T9 greek archers hardly take damage from barb archer fire either. Quite often 90% of enemy team is composed with units that barbarian archers cant even damage. Damage is so small that people playing those units dont even care zig zagging or go outside the range. I can shoot them like minute to barely get 10%-15%  of their HP away then T9 Greek archer shoot same unit with barrage and almoust complitely destroy it in 3 seconds.

 

Only units that barb archers can damage on high tier games are slingers (and there is not much of those at high tier games), artillery (but try reaching those) and cavalry but quite often only slightly barb archers are lucky if they are able to damage 20% one cavalry unit from 3 when they allready reach you. Only way to actually kill cavalry with barb archers is to bait them into trap and then kill them in melee with other units than archers. I have played hundreds of battles with barb archers and i dont remember anytime I was able to kill cavalry with missile fire alone as cavalry needs to spend multiple minutes inside range of barb archers for that to happen. :D I have a lot of friends who play greek archers and they can kill multiple cavalry units totally with just missile fire in almoust every battle. :D

 

If you hope to grind barb archers to fully upgraded T9 and hope it comes better at some point it wont come and use then with fully upgraded T10 barb commanders it wont get better at anypoint how damage scaled compared to armor and arrow deflect it comes just worse trough the tiers. T6 barb archers are better against T6 units than T9 barb archers are against T9 units. I havent tested T10 barb archers but I have heard from multiple people that they are even worse against T10 units than what T9 barb archers are against T9 units.

 

But on the good side I heard that developers are allready produsing barbarian archer focused commander to make barb archers better option for greeks so there is that.

 

Block Quote

 Irrelevant to the current topic, but during Roman week I had my Germanicus charge, popped formed combat and vengeance and went to warm up my pizza and feed my cat. When I came back I was dead, having dealt 144k damage, and we won. Germanics with heavy inf what the most f boring and brainless thing I've ever played.

 

Lol yeah! When you play barb archers you need to micro manage them like hell all of time just to get 1500 - 2000 aggression score even some games (and quite often you are totally rekt and you get only 500 score) and you need to be above average skilled player to get even any good games at all. When you play germanicus you just jolo crash charge enemy formation and activate vengeage and you get 3000-6000 aggression score every battle. You can also sit in testudo and get 10k defence score when somebody shoot you with arrows.


Edited by Jakerp, 25 January 2018 - 08:35 AM.


PaiNzzz #19 Posted 25 January 2018 - 08:37 AM

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I don't know if the archers get better at higher tiers or if it's just the tier difference, but with these guys I don't do $#!†! Even firing 3 barrages point blank on tier 9 spearmens' back ends up dealing 9k damage. Anyway, good news for you then!

 

Go to:

https://www.reddit.c...arena_and_were/

search for Barbarian and watch the news yourself!

 

Spoiler


 



WipeoutVasusu #20 Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:33 AM

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90% of the question about barbarian where from me and king




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