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The Grind to Tier X: a few numbers, imbalances, and your impressions

grind experience imbalance tier X last tiers unit commander

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Poll: Unit xp balance : read thread before, thanks ;) (27 members have cast votes)

Do you think the disparity in XP between units to reach tier 10 is too big ( actually > 30%) ?

  1. Yes (16 votes [59.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 59.26%

  2. No (7 votes [25.93%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.93%

  3. Couldn't care less (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. I don't know (4 votes [14.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.81%

Do you think CA/WG should re-balance the amount of xp needed to reach tier X?

  1. Yes, they should bring all units down to the same level as greek archer / roman javs (7 votes [25.93%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.93%

  2. Yes, they should bring all units up to the same level as War Dogs / Hoplites (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Yes, they should find a middle ground to what currently exist (8 votes [29.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.63%

  4. Yes, they should bring it down even lower than roman jav (2 votes [7.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  5. Yes, they should bring it up even higher than war dogs (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. Yes, but I don't really see how (3 votes [11.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  7. No, it's fine as it is (6 votes [22.22%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

  8. I couldn't care less (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. I don't know (1 vote [3.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

Do you think this poll usefull ?

  1. Definitely! (8 votes [29.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.63%

  2. Yes (14 votes [51.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 51.85%

  3. No (4 votes [14.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.81%

  4. I lost my time here (1 vote [3.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

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Arnianor #1 Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:54 AM

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Hi everyone!

So, those last days I was a bit interested in how long does it really takes to achieve tier X, either with units or with commanders, so I sat down, and compared a few numbers.

 

First, let's take the easy part, a little piece of info for those interested in it: it takes approx. 300k free xp to reach commander tier 10 if you buy each lvl, give or take 10k, with those approximate numbers for the last levels (sorry for not being exact, commander xp level are done by memory): T8: 41k, T9: 70k, T10: 140k

 

Now let's see about units. I compared the direct line, without any non-mandatory upgrade, from tier 1 to tier X (stock) of a few different units, to see how much xp it would need, here's the result (no, those number ain't wrong, if you don't take falcutative upgrades into account, it is extremely rare that an upgrade ports to the next tier line of mandatory upgrades):
 

Unit From tier 1 to tier 10 From T7 stock From T8 stock Games from T7 with 1200
average xp per game
Games from T7 with 3200
average xp per game
Armoured legionaires 730'500 606'000 496'200 505 189
Hoplites 761'500 637'900 548'000 532 199
Pikes 745'400 609'200 517'000 508 190
War Dogs 783'400 662'100 564'000 552 207
Falxmen 715'000 584'800 492'000 487 183
Roman cav 662'100 555'300 460'200 463 174
Greek cav 755'400 639'700 524'000 533 200
Barb cav 691'200 561'100 474'200 468 175
Roman Jav 538'600 440'900 361'900 367 138
Greek archers 567'500 463'900 394'200 387 145
Barb archers 603'900 491'200 399'200 409 154
Heavy Artillery 750'900 630'000 522'000 525 197
           
Average 692'117 573'877 479'425 478 179

As we can see, depending on the type of unit played, there is some heavy disparity in the experience needed to reach tier 10, with for instance the greek archers or the roman javelins needing over 200k less xp to reach tier 10 than the barbarians war dogs, a difference bigger than 30% of the total amount of xp needed !

 

A small difference in total amount of xp needed could be understood, but over 30% difference from one unit to the other is pretty huge. 

 

In addition, those number show the massive increase of xp needed to level up your units in the late tiers. Depending on how good you are, and the average unit xp per game you receive, it will take you anywhere from ~180games with 3200 unit xp average per game (we both know the average jack ain't getting that much, so don't kidd yourself, it'll take way longer) to ~500 games if you average around 1200 unit xp per game, this for the average unit (if you picked war dogs, you'll have to add a little).

What does such a grind serves ? In my opinion, so many games to grind only 1 tree up to max is too much. So far, there's 16 trees in the game, granted you don't have to grind them all from start, but as my table shows, the real grind only begins at tier 7/8, which are the last tiers where you can switch tech tree, and only few units can do this.
 

My opinion is the unit levling xp should be balanced to the bottom, take all high demanding xp units, and lower the xp needed to level them up to the level of greek archers or roman javs.

What do you think?


Edited by Arnianor, 08 January 2018 - 11:46 AM.


Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #2 Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:15 AM

    Optio Centuriae

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it s wrong cause in many case when you up your tier you can use the same weapon, armor etc...

 

and it s the same for other line too. for exemple you can unlock something for your pikes and you can use it too for your spears.

 

and another thing is , it s more easier to do points (so exp) as close fighter unit than a greek cave who can only charge for exemple

 


Edited by Im_Melliana_I_burn_you, 08 January 2018 - 11:17 AM.

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Arnianor #3 Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:38 AM

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View PostIm_Melliana_I_burn_you, on 08 January 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

it s wrong cause in many case when you up your tier you can use the same weapon, armor etc...

 

and it s the same for other line too. for exemple you can unlock something for your pikes and you can use it too for your spears.

 

and another thing is , it s more easier to do points (so exp) as close fighter unit than a greek cave who can only charge for exemple

 

 

It's not wrong. 99% of the time, using same armor or weapon when you up-tier is only doable when you research a facultative upgrade (which I especially mentionned didn't take into account, for this exact reason). Plus, how many times did you have a weapon going to next tiers in the high tiers ? (7 and highers?) 

Now, even if you remove one weapon or one armor per tier (and that's a lot, though at tier 9 max 38k exp), you still have to pay for the xp to go up tier, and the other upgrades to get there, which, at tier 9, will still be 200-300+k xp depeding on your unit. So I wonder how am I wrong here ?

 

And still, it doesn't address the main issue: How do you explain that the xp required for an archer unit to level up from tier 9 to tier 10 (without any prior upgrade) is 152k, whereas for infantry it's 215k (only here is already 25%) ? This difference exists on all tier, and is just getting bigger and bigger the higher the tier you go, and if you take other upgrades into account too, it reaches over 30% difference. 

 

Maybe it's easier to do point with melee than with greek cav, but did you not check the table ? Greek cav need 755k xp to reach T10, MORE than romans armoured legionaires or barbs falxmen !

 



Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #4 Posted 08 January 2018 - 12:31 PM

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i think it s cause jav cant be played as 3jav and they probably think the same for archer.

So if you play with 2jav +  inf you have to do more xp.

 

For me that s the main reason


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Arnianor #5 Posted 08 January 2018 - 12:59 PM

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View PostIm_Melliana_I_burn_you, on 08 January 2018 - 12:31 PM, said:

i think it s cause jav cant be played as 3jav and they probably think the same for archer.

So if you play with 2jav +  inf you have to do more xp.

 

For me that s the main reason

 

I thought about this too actually. The problem is, as soon as you play let's say, 2 jav + 1 x, you get +30% xp bonus, so you do 2 units which both earn 130% of normal, that's 60% bonus, so you lack only 40%. But you're upping another tree at the same time.


Edited by Arnianor, 08 January 2018 - 03:41 PM.


Im_Melliana_I_burn_you #6 Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:26 PM

    Optio Centuriae

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nah you win more with 3 units than with 2+1 and it s normal. But your 1 win more
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Arnianor #7 Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:40 PM

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You'reright actually, I corrected my post


Edited by Arnianor, 08 January 2018 - 04:44 PM.


wolfiena #8 Posted 08 January 2018 - 05:51 PM

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+1 for the way you do your quantitative research to back up your argument.

 

 



Gav_Hill #9 Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:04 PM

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The one thing I take away from this thread sitting looking at it is... did I really grind that much EXP... holy crap.

Gui91 #10 Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:14 PM

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I think that devs find that ranged units can do less average xp during one battle than other units ... Or it is much a challenge to perform a good battle with them and reach the average 1200xp per battle.

 

And what I see in the Tech Tree is that T8-9-10 units have unique abilities so they seem to be useful as how they are, so maybe it is better to use T8, T9 or T10 following the wanted gameplay. Even if T10 is the pinnacle of the branch, it is not an obligation to reach T10 units.

Anyway, thanks for having aggregated those datas ;)


Edited by Gui91, 08 January 2018 - 09:22 PM.


Smacks21 #11 Posted 09 January 2018 - 02:56 PM

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Its good to see that but I dont think it really show thé reality.

Its harder to have 1200xp (for exemple) with javs compared to roman infantery.

Xarthare #12 Posted 09 January 2018 - 09:48 PM

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Upgrading units and abilities now is far more expensive than it was in the steam version. Apart from all the things ppl agree and disagree about the steam version the ridiculous increase in grind to reach to tier 10 is one i think will cause less debate.

I can't talk for all units, but if you played the steam version and used roman cav the upgrade to get legatus used to cost 144k, now it costs 170k ish. Apart from this you have to pay a lot more for abilities, Yes once you reached tier 9 it would cost you like 22 k to upgrade wrath of mars, here you have to pay for small upgrades that go from 1k to 5 k, probably. In the end, the amount of farming s higher in this new version :/.

AstraeusTheTitan #13 Posted 14 January 2018 - 08:14 AM

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I suppose if you pay WG for premium, it takes half as long, or even less as you acquire buffs quicker... :hiding:  Good to show the disparity though!



Arnianor #14 Posted 14 January 2018 - 12:47 PM

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View PostAstraeusTheTitan, on 14 January 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

I suppose if you pay WG for premium, it takes half as long, or even less as you acquire buffs quicker... :hiding:  Good to show the disparity though!

 

That doesn't really makes sense. My table shoes the number of games you will need from T7 to T10 stock, admitting you rush and take no facultative upgrades, regarding 2 different average XP per battle. 

If you want to know for you more precisely how long it will take, it's pretty easy:

  1. In the game selection meny, click on your name / level (up right corner)
  2. Divide the "Unit XP" value (the total unit XP you've won so far) by "Battle fought" value = your average xp per battle
  3. Take the unit you want in my table, divide it's xp by your average xp per battle = min. number of battles you will need to unlock tier ten.

 

Now, don't forget that we have double XP in closed beta for quite a while already. So when open beta hits, your average XP per battle might be quite lower.
Of course, depending of you having premium account or not, it will influence your average XP per battle. But the numbers to unlock each tiers remain the same.



Jakerp #15 Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:45 AM

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It is all true what you say but CA has kind of fucked up this becouse if I know lot of people who have grinded some of those hard to grind units up to tier X with hard way they propably quit this game permanently if other people get same easy way if they are not compansated somehow having to do it 10 times hard way.

 

I know whole MMO games going dead when they games start to give hard to gain thing everybody easy way to everybody and game forgets those who gained them hard way.


Edited by Jakerp, 16 January 2018 - 10:47 AM.


Disprezzo #16 Posted 16 January 2018 - 01:24 PM

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What saddens me is that devs promised grinding would have been less of a bore and faster than it was back on steam. To me it looks unchanged if not even slower.

Sith_VoidDragon #17 Posted 26 February 2018 - 02:51 PM

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Hi all, thought I would necro this thread as having started to play Arena again in the open beta (a Steam version veteran) the grind seems excessive!  Since the Steam version closed I have played World of Warships extensively and a full tier 1 to 10 grind would take around 475 battles without extensive use of the many camo's and signals available to significantly reduce this total.

 

With open beta is the above table still relevant? 

 

Thanks.






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