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Unique Premium Unit Types and their Role in Total War: Arena


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Ardougne #1 Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:46 PM

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Reddit Thread: https://www.reddit.c..._role_in_total/

 

What is it?
In essence, it is the addition of premium units to a faction within Total War: Arena that has no 'Free to Play' equivalent. By that I mean there is no similar unit that can be earned with Unit or Free Experience.

 

Why do they matter?
Within each faction exists a variety of unit types. These unit types can be mixed and matched with other unit types and commanders to see potentially varied or powerful results. For example, Sulla can be used as an artillery commander, cavalry commander or sword infantry commander. Rome has no access to earnable spear infantry, but they do have spear infantry you can pay for with gold; The tier VII Triarii. The ability to mix any of those unit types with those Triarii and Sulla is not possible at other tiers and is only possible by paying real money. The potential impact on the balance of power within a match or within a particular fight in a match cannot be understated when spear infantry have a 100% bonus to Melee Attack and Melee Damage against Cavalry and various base stat differences such as increased Melee Defence. Combining unique stats and abilities with certain commander or other unit types when the combination would not otherwise be available grants an avenue of increased power for those who pay without providing an equal opportunity for those who don't.

 

What should premium units be?
In my opinion premium units in the long-term of Total War: Arena should be three-fold. This is not limited to how they operate within a battle.

 

  • Increased earn rates, such as silver, free xp and unit xp. This includes a lack of replenishment costs. This item is currently true.
  • Grant access to units that are similar to other units in the factions tree, but either look special and/or provide slightly different stat lines or unit types they already control.
  • As rewards for contests, events, tournaments or effort.

 

What should premium units not be?

Again in my opinion, they should NOT do these things.

  • Offer unique unit types to a faction that doesn't already have them.
  • Include strong unit abilities unavailable to other units.
  • Be stronger than earnable and upgraded units at their tier.
  • Be weaker than earnable and un-upgraded units at their tier.

 

Why does have a similar earnable unit matter?

For players it matters because if offering a unique combination of generals and units or units themselves can be overpowering. For example The Barbarian T4 Spear Brothers can be combined with the abilities of Vercingetorix to combine Scorched Earth with Barbarian Phalanx. That combination isn't available with other barbarian units because they don't have access to spears otherwise. You can see something similar with Scipio and Oath of Perseverance. A unit with quite high defence being combined with a strong defensive ability. These various combinations are only inclined to become more extreme as additional premium units are added and it is something we need to start discussing as a community well before it becomes the norm. The trouble is, we may be too late already.

 

Analysis of the stats
To return to the Scipio with Oath example, let’s see what the unit stats look like for Triarii compared to other Roman infantry at the same tier, Centurions and Veteran Legionaries. I will use both the base and upgraded stats of the non-premium units because the premiums do not get upgrades.

When using Oath of Perseverance at tier 10 you apply the following stats to your unit.

 

  • Speed: -60%
  • Charge Deflect: +30%
  • Melee Defence: +100%
  • Morale: +129
  • Melee Attack +10%

 

First let’s look at the stats of Triarii compared to their earnable equivalent, Agema Spears. I’m only looking at stats impacted by Oath.I won’t put the Agema Spears through Oath, because they cannot use Oath in any situation. 


 

You can see here that they are relatively comparable. Agema spears will be faster and actually get a much better Melee Attack stat than Triarii. The melee defence is quite close. The only area Triarii really pull ahead in these stats is Charge Deflect. Charge deflect operates a bit different in phalanx, so the difference isn’t a big deal. The stats themselves are reasonable, but become unreasonable when you get Oath of Perseverance involved. Let’s take a look at the normal units and Oath.

 

As you can see Oath of Perseverance bumps the on par stats of the Triarii above and beyond. Their melee defence shoots up very high, with the closest roman infantry at tier only reaching 66% of of where the Triarii stop. The unique premium units can combine in interesting and powerful ways with the existing generals, but a player who doesn’t want to pay real money won’t be able to do the same thing in battle. It provides an undeniable advantage to those willing to put the money in.

 

What is the solution for this?
There are three potential solutions that would resolve the potential perception of a Pay-to-Win system regarding these unique unit types.

 

My first proposal is to create new earnable unit trees for the unique premium unit types. If the unit types are earnable it will, of course, decrease the demand for the premium units, but it will also allow Free-to-Play players the ability to create the same combinations. It will also increase the content within the existing core factions of the game which is a good thing to do. I never really agreed with the slimming of faction unit trees in the first place as the excuse of designing each faction for a purpose felt hollow. Even more so when they started releasing previously earnable units(on steam) as premiums.

 

My second proposal is to remove the unique premium units. This solution would fall in line with CA's stated desire of making the factions designed for a role or purpose in mind. Even though I disagree with that decision, if they want to stand by that argument this is the only solution I think would be viable for CA if the desire to avoid Pay-to-Win situations and arguments exists.

 

The third proposal, suggested to me by DETrooper, is to simply make all premium units earnable within the game. If they can be earned, the concerns about them only reachable by paying goes away.

 

What are your thoughts on these units?

  • Delian Peltasts - T4 Greek Javelins
  • Thracian Peltasts - T7 Greek Javelins
  • Spear Brothers - T4 Barbarian Spearmen
  • Celtic Slingers - T5 Barbarian Slingers
  • Youths - T6 Barbarian Javelins
  • Auxiliary Cavalry - T4 Roman Spear Cavalry
  • Germanic Scouts - T4 Roman Archers
  • Triarii - T7 Roman Spearmen
  • Auxiliary Sagittari - T7 Roman Archers

Edited by 5D__Ardez, 05 December 2017 - 10:48 PM.

 


Paganwitch #2 Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:20 PM

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i am fine with all premiu unit i think  its good change from bored same over time battle thy are strong but not so much thy arent OP and sula with triary cna be killed easily i did it many times
i am onyl sorry for argrives hoplites thyy look very bad

Ardougne #3 Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:55 PM

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View PostPaganwitch, on 05 December 2017 - 11:20 PM, said:

i am fine with all premiu unit i think  its good change from bored same over time battle thy are strong but not so much thy arent OP and sula with triary cna be killed easily i did it many times
i am onyl sorry for argrives hoplites thyy look very bad

 

In this case it isn't a matter of OP or UP, but rather it is about those units providing an 'edge' in combat to players who decide to purchase particular premium units. I'm not trying to say these units are amazing or extremely powerful, but rather that they give you access to force mixes otherwise unavailable to those who don't pay and that those force mixes can provide advantages in battle.

 


Jakerp #4 Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:59 AM

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Block Quote

"As you can see Oath of Perseverance bumps the on par stats of the Triarii above and beyond. Their melee defence shoots up very high, with the closest roman infantry at tier only reaching 66% of of where the Triarii stop. The unique premium units can combine in interesting and powerful ways with the existing generals, but a player who doesn’t want to pay real money won’t be able to do the same thing in battle. It provides an undeniable advantage to those willing to put the money in."

 

 

 

There is huge problem in this tactic if triarii is in oath mode it cant be controlled anymore and player who fights it could exploit that flank rear attacking it. As long as 1 unit maintain contact with it oath keeps going and player who is using it cant do anything to prevent flanking. Also breaking oath by pulling out if it is used  makes less damage as spearmen attack is less than roman infantry attack so it can score less damage to pulling out unit than sword infantry can.

 

Sure that oath triarii is powerful against players who only tactics is jolo attack click and blob without pulling out or any other tactics.

 

But also fact that spearmen make less damage means that you have more time to flank it and break its morale or pull out with less casulties than you get from sword oath.

 

 

 

 



Ardougne #5 Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:25 AM

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The Triarii using Oath is just one example of the larger idea behind the thread. 

 

Let's look at the peltasts for greece as well. Greece has access to both Slings and Archers. Neither one is great at ranged AP damage, but paying players are able to add T4 Delian Peltasts or T7 Thracian Peltasts to their army. The comparatively high AP gives them the ability to fight in ways other greek players can't. Using Alexander they can anvil(with a mixed force of 1-2 spears and 1-2 peltasts) enemy infantry in place and use the peltasts to destroy heavily armored units that they couldn't normally defeat.

 

Basically, any ability combo that used to require two players to do can be done by 1 player because of some of these premium units. And as before, it isn't about the combinations being OP or not, but rather about them not being available as options to all players.


 


Paganwitch #6 Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:39 AM

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i think this diverzity is good think and i hope premuim unit stay as thy are..  maybe problem is prize..? too high? if more ppl can aforde thm more " balanced" it ill be..
but as some said its about taktic.. and this combination what can lead in to advantage? well thsi happen once per few battle.. but in some its totaly useles and normal unit are better.. you never know how situacion on map will go..
+ i dont see any problem agin becouse ok well triari but you can stil use pikes aginst them... those units are unique in faction but not in game so there is nothing what you cannot handle.. and i except on tier 6-8  you should played enough battle to know how disengage from oath or vengence and kill oponent..
roman can hold in combat greek have speed buff or shield bash and barbi cna have hamstick so you slow and run out..
 

Bronze_Spear #7 Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:40 PM

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View PostPaganwitch, on 06 December 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

i think this diverzity is good think and i hope premuim unit stay as thy are..  maybe problem is prize..? too high? if more ppl can aforde thm more " balanced" it ill be..
but as some said its about taktic.. and this combination what can lead in to advantage? well thsi happen once per few battle.. but in some its totaly useles and normal unit are better.. you never know how situacion on map will go..
+ i dont see any problem agin becouse ok well triari but you can stil use pikes aginst them... those units are unique in faction but not in game so there is nothing what you cannot handle.. and i except on tier 6-8  you should played enough battle to know how disengage from oath or vengence and kill oponent..
roman can hold in combat greek have speed buff or shield bash and barbi cna have hamstick so you slow and run out..
 

 

Well said @PaganWitch about there are counters already>> So therefore a faction having a unique unit to their own forces won't be as absurd as Ardez seems to propagandize.....Propaganda pure and simple because the counters are already there.........Just give the SS swords back to the Greeks already rather it becomes a Premium unit or Tree-tech unit........Please.....The way I see it Pagan is correct......Leave the units be and Hell add some more diversity (ergo more premium units) for the longevity of the game because honestly some people just aren't into playing specific factions point blank and simple......*__*

Ardougne #8 Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:42 PM

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I'm not trying to argue against diversity. I am trying to argue for diversity if anything, because the solution I would prefer is CA adding earnable unit trees so f2p players will have the same options in terms of army composition as paying players.

 


Paganwitch #9 Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:48 AM

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well aas i said problem is prize.. e.g bundle 100E rly do you know how much in some  center europe country this is? Its absurd.. + those gold..
if thy lower prize  more ppl will buy it and more money thy will made.. Look at CD project red its polish company thy totaly understand  about eonomy in poland and other post comunism countiers.. for feew coin thy give you new game..  Thy are evne aginst anti piracy protection.. Thy said  if you dont wanna pay download it thy even add patch on birate bay so thy said ok we arent happy you dotn pay but we understand some cannt and we wish same game for all so you can donwload oficial patch for pirate version.. And look at this company .. Thy are absolute top profit thy made milions of dolars and guess why? Becouse thy arent greedy... This is example how  comapny should behive.. Thy have free to play card game.. and for very low prize 5 euro you get  very much in game things..  Ok not much as in arena for 100 E but half of equal but their prize is not hings its 5% comapre to this..
I say all this to example.. may gold cheep make in game premium unit cheep more ppl will buy..
you knoow me oyu know me from battles from forum i am one of few withc so many battles (ok last month i dotn paly but still) i am veteran even amongs veterans) so for me this ultimate bundle is  real "TOP" becouse i play game spend time i would use it but i dont have it guess why.. becouse it is fuking expensive..
I never say game is bad so i wont buy it.. i always say game prize shoudl be equal to quality .. And iems here are not equal to 100Euro .. sorry but 100E those are 2 new AAA game titles
wwarhammer 2 i bought for 60 and its much more worth... Funny i am 100% sure more ppls spend work on TW WH2 than arena..
Honestly i relay dont understand this busnies model.. ANd trust me i have  economical education on higl level.. I have Graduetion from economy at high schol + on university ( not economical uni) but still i have economicla dissertation about economy crisis in EU and i got 1 mark  so when i say some about this its not just empty words from some guy who dont have any clue about how economy work... And this is whole problem.. in game economy and real money busniess model can bring this game to ruin like WOT did... But lets hope WG take lesson..
i mean Pay to win model in WOT where premium ammo etc give signaficant boost. personaly i did not play WOT but have some friends ad some topic and all say them same.. but ofc its still  from second hand but i guess i am notfar from truth..
excuse my gramar i am tired so maybe some typping error etc but i hope my point and esence what i wish say its clear..

Edited by Paganwitch, 07 December 2017 - 01:49 AM.


Ardougne #10 Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:14 PM

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It begins again.

 

https://na.wargaming.../shop/twa/main/

 

Premium Greek Scorpions, the only greek artillery in the game.

Premium Roman Spears at T8, now 2 premium roman spears in the game.


 


Jakerp #11 Posted 30 December 2017 - 02:18 PM

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View Post5D__Ardez, on 29 December 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

It begins again.

 

https://na.wargaming.../shop/twa/main/

 

Premium Greek Scorpions, the only greek artillery in the game.

Premium Roman Spears at T8, now 2 premium roman spears in the game.

 

I must say that I start to be bit conserned this huge include of new premium units in game at rapid phase. When there was only rare selection of them I did not care that much but this game has taken large steps toward pay to win model witch I dont like.

 

I dont mind grinding phase premium units that much but if they add tier 9 and tier 10 end game premium units that might destroy this game for me as I want everybody to be able to get into end game same terms so this game remaing interesting. I understand that this game had to fund itself but I think it should be done mostly by allowing faster grind with real money not with large selection of premium units.



Zoltan1251 #12 Posted 30 December 2017 - 11:55 PM

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View PostJakerp, on 30 December 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

 

I must say that I start to be bit conserned this huge include of new premium units in game at rapid phase. When there was only rare selection of them I did not care that much but this game has taken large steps toward pay to win model witch I dont like.

 

I dont mind grinding phase premium units that much but if they add tier 9 and tier 10 end game premium units that might destroy this game for me as I want everybody to be able to get into end game same terms so this game remaing interesting. I understand that this game had to fund itself but I think it should be done mostly by allowing faster grind with real money not with large selection of premium units.

 

you clearly dont know WG... there will be no tier 9 and 10 premium units.... 

D_Randal #13 Posted 31 December 2017 - 11:23 AM

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I  say, make all Premium Units earnable within the game. Sure, it could take some time and upgrades but nevertheless, they can be reached. Those willing to cough up the cash to speed things up, be my guest, but everything should be within reach. This is the only fair solution. 

"Perseverance is more prevailing than violence; and many things which cannot be overcome when they are together, yield themselves up when taken little by little".

Plutarch


RaptorAbt #14 Posted 03 January 2018 - 12:37 PM

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View PostD_Randal, on 31 December 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

I  say, make all Premium Units earnable within the game. Sure, it could take some time and upgrades but nevertheless, they can be reached. Those willing to cough up the cash to speed things up, be my guest, but everything should be within reach. This is the only fair solution. 

 

​WGA will continue to create and "sell" Premium Units for real money (it helps keep the game F2P for those who don't wish to open their wallets). They could however occasionally have special Missions to earn a Premium unit (as per current WoWs & WoT campaigns/marathons). It a business, there is nothing "fair" in the real world.




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