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Archer/slinger imbalance


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m0rgoth_ #1 Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:19 AM

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Both units have too high missile damage if we compare it with the infantry and cavalry armors of the same tier, but slingers also have about 10 more missile damage than archers and this combined with their higher range allows them to outplay archers every single time. Their missile damage should be at least 10-15 lower than archers' 

Edited by m0rgoth_, 12 September 2017 - 07:19 AM.

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Aetholite #2 Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:28 AM

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View Postm0rgoth_, on 12 September 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

Both units have too high missile damage if we compare it with the infantry and cavalry armors of the same tier, but slingers also have about 10 more missile damage than archers and this combined with their higher range allows them to outplay archers every single time. Their missile damage should be at least 10-15 lower than archers' 


Dont they have lower AP than archers though?


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m0rgoth_ #3 Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:39 AM

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View PostAetholite, on 12 September 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:


Dont they have lower AP than archers though?

 

That would be important if there was armor to negate the normal damage, but the highest unit armors of the tier are like 25  lower (without upgrades on both infantry/cav and missiles) from the missile damage ,so they apply about the same damage

 


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Aetholite #4 Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:17 AM

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The thing is that I dont think you will complain about killing lots of peltasts. Because they also easily get outplayed by archers. But that is just the trade of for way more damage and AP. I think the archers are a middleground decent damage and range and AP. And then you have slingers which are specialised in longer range but lower AP. So I guess they could lower the damage a bit. But they still need to have something that makes them stand out.

"It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience."

 

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Balty09 #5 Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:45 AM

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Slingers should have lower damnage and especialy be weak against heavy armor, which they are not now. They deal pretty high damage even to roman swords or hoplites.

SUNTZU_JoJo #6 Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:55 AM

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View Postm0rgoth_, on 12 September 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

Both units have too high missile damage if we compare it with the infantry and cavalry armors of the same tier, but slingers also have about 10 more missile damage than archers and this combined with their higher range allows them to outplay archers every single time. Their missile damage should be at least 10-15 lower than archers' 

 

Slingers are Archer killers.

 

end-of

 


 

I play Slingers as my No. 2 unit (No.1 being Spears) and I target archers - that is what they are for.

 

Difference between Archers & Slingers, don't fight in the open with Archers against Slingers, you will lose.

 

Fight behind cover, as Slingers need a (direct-line-of-sight) but Archers can shoot in an 'arc' shape over walls/buildings as long as they have vision on their enemies.

 

Use this to your advantage.

 

 


...When ten to the enemy’s one, surround him;

...When five times his strength, attack him;

...If double his strength, divide him;
...If equally matched you may engage him;
...If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
...And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
...for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."

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m0rgoth_ #7 Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:00 AM

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View PostSUNTZU_JoJo, on 12 September 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

 

Slingers are Archer killers.

 

end-of

 


 

I play Slingers as my No. 2 unit (No.1 being Spears) and I target archers - that is what they are for.

 

Difference between Archers & Slingers, don't fight in the open with Archers against Slingers, you will lose.

 

Fight behind cover, as Slingers need a (direct-line-of-sight) but Archers can shoot in an 'arc' shape over walls/buildings as long as they have vision on their enemies.

 

Use this to your advantage.

 

 

 

Yes we agree. But they should not win archers in their range just like archers don't win javelins in their range. With the stats they have now archers can't win even if they get close enough.

 


Edited by m0rgoth_, 12 September 2017 - 09:18 AM.

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SUNTZU_JoJo #8 Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:19 AM

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View Postm0rgoth_, on 12 September 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

[EDITED]

Yes we agree, But they should not win archers in their range just like archers don't win javelins in their range. With the stats they have now archers can't win even if they get close enough.

 

Because I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with regards to Slingers being unable to be defeated by Archers - I haven't checked but I believe Archers have the Strain Unit ability (and Slingers do not..?)

 

Greeks have Spears/Pikes but nothing to defend against Archers, that's where Slingers come in.

 

If they were any worse in terms of damage VS Archers, then Slingers wouldn't be usefull at all, because that line-of-sight works for when melee is engaged, with archers you can hit targets behind, but with Slingers it's difficult to do that without causing lots of FF.

 

Also that extra damage is good against Sword infantry and I'll take anything I can against those pesky Swords. :)

 

- don't get me wrong, I think possible T5 Slingers have some balance issues and maybe some other Tiers of Silngers as well, (they gave off 1 volley and destroyed 75% of 1 Cavalry unit - same Tier - which was just insane - then they targeted Swords and oh! the humanity!).

So there is something not right there.

 

Reducing the AP damage, although minimal, is good, but reducing their base damage in general will result in Archers beating them & I don't think that should be the case. IMO.

 

The range is also minimal to allow an advantage - sure some know how to play that range well, but most of the time it simply allows you to get 1 volley off before the archers are in range - maybe 2 - depending on terrain.


Edited by SUNTZU_JoJo, 12 September 2017 - 09:27 AM.

...When ten to the enemy’s one, surround him;

...When five times his strength, attack him;

...If double his strength, divide him;
...If equally matched you may engage him;
...If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
...And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
...for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."

the Art of War, by Sun Tzu

Youtube Channel [ JoJo's GGs ] has gone live!


m0rgoth_ #9 Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:32 AM

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View PostSUNTZU_JoJo, on 12 September 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

 

Apologies if I misunderstood but you suggest "Their missile damage should be at least 10-15 lower than archers'" in what context?

Because I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree.

 

Greeks have Spears/Pikes but nothing to defend against Archers, that's where Slingers come in.

 

If they were any worse in terms of damage VS Archers, then Slingers wouldn't be usefull at all, because that line-of-sight works for when melee is engaged, with archers you can hit targets behind, but with Slingers it's difficult to do that without causing lots of FF.

 

Also that extra damage is good against Sword infantry and I'll take anything I can against those pesky Swords. :)

 

- don't get me wrong, I think possible T5 Slingers have some balance issues and maybe some other Tiers of Silngers as well, (they gave off 1 volley and destroyed 75% of 1 Cavalry unit - same Tier - which was just insane - then they targeted Swords and oh! the humanity!).

So there is something not right there.

 

Reducing the AP damage, although minimal, is good, but reducing their base damage in general will result in Archers beating them & I don't think that should be the case. IMO.

 

They should be able to win each other in certain cases  like it was in steam. Can't talk about their performance vs other units, i suppose devs had their reasons to buff them so much.


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0ddys #10 Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:34 AM

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Reduce there AP Damage would have no effect cause they already only have 4 AP Damage. The only part of there damage that could be nerfed is the normal damage and i completly agree that T V Slingers damage is to high. They sould do lees damage then archer but have more range to balance it, but right now they do more damage and have more range.

Comp4ny #11 Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:54 AM

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Archers are better as Slingers - END. This is fact.

 

Archers vs. Slingers == Who will win? >> Archers

Archers vs. Javelins == Who will win? >> Archers

 

Why is it so? Simple... Slingers have many Con's. The biggest PRO's for Slingers: Range & DMG. Not more.

But Archers have many Pro's and two important Features there Slingers miss: Barrage + Strain.

 

I have atm with my Commander 73 % faster Reload (Barrage), and combine with (Strain): 88% on a Tier 6 Commander!

But... i'm not done to Skilling this. Completly outskilled have you i think 91 fucking % alone (!) by Barrage. Also in combine with (Strain) 106 % faster Reload.

Is  a Slinger in Range ... and you use Barrage & Strain = there has no Chance. Insta Dead. Especially if one still uses hunting arrows. Good Night Slingers.

BTW ... Archers shoot a litte bit faster then Slingers. .... this is my Opionon.

 

And we talk here ONLY ... above this important Skills on a Archers. The other Pro's of the Archers are another Story.

 

Look this Spread of Arrows: https://gfycat.com/D...yAsiaticmouflon

Or my Commander on T4: https://gfycat.com/O...redAchillestang


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SUNTZU_JoJo #12 Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:11 AM

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View PostComp4ny, on 12 September 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

Archers are better as Slingers - END. This is fact.

 

Archers vs. Slingers == Who will win? >> Archers

Archers vs. Javelins == Who will win? >> Archers

 

Why is it so? Simple... Slingers have many Con's. The biggest PRO's for Slingers: Range & DMG. Not more.

But Archers have many Pro's and two important Features there Slingers miss: Barrage + Strain.

 

I have atm with my Commander 73 % faster Reload (Barrage), and combine with (Strain): 88% on a Tier 6 Commander!

But... i'm not done to Skilling this. Completly outskilled have you i think 91 fucking % alone (!) by Barrage. Also in combine with (Strain) 106 % faster Reload.

Is  a Slinger in Range ... and you use Barrage & Strain = there has no Chance. Insta Dead. Especially if one still uses hunting arrows. Good Night Slingers.

BTW ... Archers shoot a litte bit faster then Slingers. .... this is my Opionon.

 

And we talk here ONLY ... above this important Skills on a Archers. The other Pro's of the Archers are another Story.

 

Look this Spread of Arrows: https://gfycat.com/D...yAsiaticmouflon

Or my Commander on T4: https://gfycat.com/O...redAchillestang

 

Ummm, Slingers have Barrage too cuz it's Cynane's ability... :) so Archers only have 'Strain' as the advantage.

There is a reload time difference (no reload time modifiers applied) between Archers & Slinges.

 

Only reason why you haven't lost to Archers is because you haven't come up against me and my Slingers yet. ;)

 

Archer shots can be kited by swerving left/right or back/forth - the arc of fire - but you cannot dodge sligner shots cuz they're straight at you.

 

I will win 1-on-1 engagements with my Slingers VS Archers when we are same Tier - evenly matched in numbers/units (i.e. 3 Archers VS 3 Slingers = both with Cynane).

 

We should sync up and give this a go - test it out - for fun, of course. :)

 


Edited by SUNTZU_JoJo, 12 September 2017 - 10:12 AM.

...When ten to the enemy’s one, surround him;

...When five times his strength, attack him;

...If double his strength, divide him;
...If equally matched you may engage him;
...If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
...And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
...for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."

the Art of War, by Sun Tzu

Youtube Channel [ JoJo's GGs ] has gone live!


Comp4ny #13 Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:20 AM

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View PostSUNTZU_JoJo, on 12 September 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

 

Ummm, Slingers have Barrage too cuz it's Cynane's ability... :) so Archers only have 'Strain' as the advantage.

There is a reload time difference (no reload time modifiers applied) between Archers & Slinges.

 

 

No they do not have a Barrage. Would be the OP. It's Grey, can't use.

Can you Read in the Discription, it's only for Archers ;)

 

Have often won against Slinger, you just have to know how, where and when ;)


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SUNTZU_JoJo #14 Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:27 AM

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View PostComp4ny, on 12 September 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

 

No they do not have a Barrage. Would be the OP. It's Grey, can't use.

Can you Read in the Discription, it's only for Archers ;)

 

Have often won against Slinger, you just have to know how, where and when ;)

 

Ok maybe I'm mistaken (it's really annoying & hard to post when not at home to double-check things...)


This will be fun! :)

 

Where? - Discord.

When? - This week/weekend.

 

Send me PM because I've been meaning to test a few things regarding Archers VS Slingers - I have got you as friend in game already so, we'll try a sync this week hopefully.


...When ten to the enemy’s one, surround him;

...When five times his strength, attack him;

...If double his strength, divide him;
...If equally matched you may engage him;
...If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
...And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
...for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."

the Art of War, by Sun Tzu

Youtube Channel [ JoJo's GGs ] has gone live!


nikepetros #15 Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:41 AM

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View Postm0rgoth_, on 12 September 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

 

Yes we agree. But they should not win archers in their range just like archers don't win javelins in their range. With the stats they have now archers can't win even if they get close enough.

 

 

Archers don't win javelins in range.....?! Archers range are 90-95, javelins are 43......

 

Use your archer's higher piercing damage to wipe melee infantry instead of fighting a anti ranged unit....


Edited by nikepetros, 12 September 2017 - 10:43 AM.


SUNTZU_JoJo #16 Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:47 AM

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View Postnikepetros, on 12 September 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

 

Archers don't win javelins in range.....?! Archers range are 90-95, javelins are 43......

 

Use your archer's higher piercing damage to wipe melee infantry instead of fighting a anti ranged unit....

 

Archers do beat Javelins in ranged - of course (only time they are 'close' is when Javelins have that Consumable which extends range).

 

As for point 2 - I personally target Javelins with whatever ranged I have, especially Archers & Slingers, because infantry can be taken care of later - you get too close & 2 volleys of Javs and it's all over.

 

Javs first, then go for the infantry - if the Javs come back (after the initial retreat, keep the at bay, but they are my priority target (after other Archers or Slingers..


...When ten to the enemy’s one, surround him;

...When five times his strength, attack him;

...If double his strength, divide him;
...If equally matched you may engage him;
...If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
...And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
...for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."

the Art of War, by Sun Tzu

Youtube Channel [ JoJo's GGs ] has gone live!


nikepetros #17 Posted 12 September 2017 - 11:06 AM

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I would like to see that archers can deploy infantry stakes for their protection, like medival 2.

Balty09 #18 Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:29 PM

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I must agree with some posts here. Archers should be able to kill slingers if they get into range. Thats why slingers have bonus range to counter archers, but not with higher damage, but with that higher range. Right now slingers seems to me deal too much damage even to high armor units. 

 

Every unit should be able to kill any other unit under certain circumstances. If archers cant kill slingers even when they are in propper range to attack. Than its wrong.



nikepetros #19 Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:59 PM

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View PostBalty09, on 12 September 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

I must agree with some posts here. Archers should be able to kill slingers if they get into range. Thats why slingers have bonus range to counter archers, but not with higher damage, but with that higher range. Right now slingers seems to me deal too much damage even to high armor units. 

 

Every unit should be able to kill any other unit under certain circumstances. If archers cant kill slingers even when they are in propper range to attack. Than its wrong.

 

It's not only rage but the shield make them superior against archers with no shield, barb archer have shields and they quite capable to kill slingers when in range, because archers have quicker reload.

AlexeiCrimson #20 Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:37 PM

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Archers and Slingers both do too much damage overall. Even with Testudo active, you still get melted by same tier Archers. Running head-on at Archers barely even lets you block much with shield-wielding units. Pure Infantry squads just get kited and slowly killed. Archers being faster is fine, but they certainly should not be doing damage against units with their shields raised.




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